Let me be honest with you. I've never been passionate about women's ministry. Not specifically. I'm passionate about encouraging people (challenging people?) to participate in God's kingdom work, which means being passionate about people, which sometimes means finding myself in women's ministry (but also means finding myself in young adult ministry, youth group ministry, missions, artists' groups, small group ministry, singles' ministry--you get the picture).
I'm passionate about connecting with people (ironic since meeting new people scares me at times). I'm passionate about finding my place in God's story and taking people with me.
These days, my place in God's story seems to include women's ministry, specifically in partnering with my church and with groups like bible.org and Proven Way ministries in figuring out both how to develop theological materials and how to connect with my generation. (Now I have that song stuck in my head--Talking 'bout My Generation--although I don't know if that's really the title of the song or just a line from it.)
Here's the thing--women in their 20s and 30s are not involved in women's ministry. In other words, women's ministry is doing a great job of ministering to women in their 40s and above, but, for the most part, is not meeting the needs of 20s and 30s, specifically those who are single or married without kids.
I'm going to be honest about what's kept me from being involved in women's ministry in the past, and my plea is, will you share what's kept you/keeping you from being involved in women's ministry, both good and bad reasons?
- In both my learning environments (i.e. college and grad school) and my working environments, there's no distinction between men and women. This goes back to my femininity post (okay, posts). Frankly, I don't care if you're a man or woman if you have something to teach me. This is my biggest reason and it reflects two things: (1) I want to hear diverse opinions (even if I don't agree with them), and (2) I connect more on other levels, such as personality.
- There's a perception of fluff surrounding women's ministry. Sometimes this perception holds true. Other times it doesn't. But I get tired of trying to figure out which ones do and which ones don't. Sometimes the fluff is needed. Sometimes the need is just to connect people of similar interests. But personally, I'm interested in getting into the theology and meaning of life. I'm interested in spiritual formation and discipleship. I'm interested (and this gets to the heart of it since the other interests are for the purpose of this one) in loving God and loving my neighbor as myself, which means (as I said in the beginning of the post), participating in God's kingdom work.
- I've been involved in other ministries that I've been able to pursue the above interests so haven't felt the need to get involved in women's ministry.
- Women's ministry hasn't always had something to say to my life. What do I mean by this? There are excellent resources and studies out there geared for women--Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, BSF. These are all good things ministering in good ways to a lot of people. But, as I said in those imaginative theologian posts, my learning style is governed more by my personality and my identity as an artist than it is by my femininity. So while Beth Moore, Kay Arthur, and BSF are all excellent and needed, I don't learn as much from them. Think about it in regards to your college life. Different people resonate with different classes and different teachers. (Sidenote: this is why I've started writing Bible studies--not because others aren't doing it well but because I wanted to write something for people who see things the way I see them.) One example of a group of women doing Bible study together that I've connected with in the past and look forward to connecting with very, very soon again is Soul Per Suit because of the women involved and the way the Bible studies are structured.
In the end, I think I sometimes feel more segregated from the church by women's ministry than I have felt connected with the church. I don't think women's ministry needs to be doing everything. And I think that women's ministry needs to look different for each church based on the needs of your church and your community. To end on a positive note, I'd like to list a few possibilities that women's ministry has that other ministries don't:
- Connecting women together for spiritual formation. Theology and spiritual formation (and, for that matter, service) flow together. I'm not a fan of models that distinguish between heart, mind, and service because I think all affect the other. That being said, I think there is a place for spiritual formation which takes the theology in a very personal way (though I hate saying that as if theology is ever not personal!) within the context of a small, trusted group with the intention of opening you up, cleaning you out, discovering who you are (the good, the bad, and the ugly) so that you may serve in the way God intended to serve. I think women's ministry is an excellent platform for this ministry because, let's be honest, there are some things that I can say to women that I can't say to men (other than my husband). This is not to say that women's ministry is the only place for spiritual formation, but a good option.
- Some ministries, such as those to battered women or pregnant girls with no where to turn, are better done women-to-women because these hurting women may not trust men as well because of their history.
In short, I think I'd like to see women's ministry more outwardly focused and coordinating with other ministries in order to connect with people like me.
But I only speak for myself.
I know this is a long post, but if you've made it thus far and still have a second to spare, I'd love to know your thoughts as I seek to help other ministries.
Geezaree, Heather, I KNOW you had to have LOVED this comment thread! I skimmed it in parts and read-read it in parts, and now I can't remember a whole lot of your post :/.
(Is it NECESSARY FOR ME TO BE SO HONEST??? Geez-to-me!)
Here are a few thoughts--
1) Sometimes...s o m e t i m e s...you come across with a teensy chip on your shoulder. It's difficult to describe; I DO see your heart's cry to love and live like Jesus. I do. Don't let that first sentence lead you to believe I don't see Christ in you, or that I'm even sitting in judgment of you. I'm not. Actually, I see it as a symptom of your youth (you sound more like the version of me ten years ago). Not that you sound "young" (too young), just that sometimes like you have an agenda, in addition to the agenda Jesus might have for you.
Crap. This sounds critical and I'm trying to dig myself out, when all I really have to do is not publish this comment...but...I think I'm supposed to.
I'm having to work harder to find the "right" words, concerned that I'll sound like a *itchy know-it-all when that couldn't be farther from the truth (I hope :/).
I hear what you're saying...I even agree with much of it. The bottom line to me is women and men ARE different, so there's a place for Women's ministry, and as you've succinctly suggested, it should "fit" your own faith community.
Why do you think you're getting hung up on it? Maybe you've answered that in other posts...but you keep coming back to it, so, somethin's goin' on.
For me, a place where I'm thriving in women's ministry is within small groups designed, not for Bible study (there's plenty of that offered at our church), not in book studies, not in extended prayer...simply in being together. Period. I struggled for years trying to figure out "what" we were about--I felt the need to spiritualize what we were doing; that our time wasn't of value if we weren't "doing" something "spiritual".
The thing is, we WERE/ARE doing something spiritual. We're learning each other's hearts...we're building relationship...we're earning the right to say the hard things...and we're present when one of us is struggling--just because we make it a priority once a week to BE together. We do pray, we do share if something's going on spiritually (good or bad) in our lives. But mostly, it's hang time. In this day and time when lives are so fractured because of work, civic or family demands, etc., it's harder to just "be" together. I guess this is my attempt to make it happen.
The one thing you've discussed that rings loudly, though, is younger women's needs not being seen and met. That's concerning. I guess that's where God is directly YOU, as you're seeking to write studies with this group in mind.
I'll try to be more cohesive next time--too many interruptions from the time I read your post and began commenting over an hour ago! Yuck!
:)
I love salt and vinegar chips. Can eat the entire bag.
I do apologize about sounding agenda-driven. I know I'm being blunt and harsh because it's been something frustrating to me for a long time. So many people have tried to stuff me into women's ministry because I'm a woman even though the ministry didn't fit.
But I keep coming back to the connections I make with other women that I can't make with men.
Just like I make connections with other artists (men and women) that I can't make with engineers.
Different aspects.
Those women's connections keep me coming back to this question that I've posed above. I've tip-toed around it for a while, but here it is.
You're not the first one to say this about me, Robin. So don't worry about that!
As far as your group--the key element, it sounds like, is the commitment you have to one another, which is something that came out in the comments, something that I desire and am missing. Something that I blame not women's ministry for, but the 20s and 30s themselves who are always looking for the next best thing. So both are at fault for different reasons.
Not every group has to look alike--this is where the Holy Spirit comes in. I'm not just talking about women's ministry, but the groups within a women's ministry.
Thank you, Robin, for not deleting your comment!
My 2 cents worth . . . I think one of the problems with women's ministries is the "focus" that shuts out some and favors others. The universal "ministry" responds to hunger in the soul and fills it. Passion lives in young and old believers alike, and the wisdom from an older woman can bless a younger woman while the vitality and fresh insight from a young woman can bless the heart of an older woman. When you structure a ministry so tightly, there is no opportunity for the Holy Spirit to move in and out of a meeting and determine what is of tantamount importance for that individual gathering together of His daughters. Good women's ministry has a leader or two who are deeply burdened for women in general and who cannot deny the leading of the Spirit to take herself and others into a deeper knowledge and experience of the Father, the Savior, and the Spirit of Truth.
wow, nicole. i could not have said it better. i think you fit into a few short words exactly my perspective, too. thank you for sharing that.
i've been thinking about michelle and heather's exchange from earlier today, and i think i see the value in both perspectives they offered. michelle, i heard you to be saying something along the lines of what nicole articulated here -- that the work of the Holy Spirit is present and powerful and can move among and between and within people who are open to his leading them. I was just talking with a friend last night about something similar to what you shared about the need or not-need of teachers. i was sharing with her some of what i mentioned here -- how overwhelming it can be to think about leading whole groups of people in this direction, as well as the leaders of those groups, and what do you do about training? -- and my friend was sharing with me about how sometimes our strident views of the bible and theological training needed to interpret it can shut out the very powerful and real movement of God and his ability to speak to people outside the bible. we got to talking about people who don't have access to bibles, or who have access to only one page, or who historically never got to read the bible for themselves or who, in the beginning years of the church, only had access to letters that shuffled around among house churches. besides reading those letters of teaching and exhortation from paul and peter and john, etc., they were doing life together -- being in community, sharing without hope of gain, and loving others into the kingdom, too. all without the formal institution of the bible that we have now. i stumbled upon the thought that perhaps today we somehow place the bible at the same level as the Trinity . . . when really, it was given by God to be one tool of many to know him, but it is not equal with or encompassing the whole of him.
heather, i understood you to be saying that we still need teachers who help us, and we still need the gift of scriptures since it has been given to us. this kinda goes along with the other thought me and my friend had last night about what happens when people don't have the bible at all -- how can they ever know about the man and savior Jesus Christ? they cannot know unless someone tells them, because otherwise they only have general revelation. and even if they are illiterate or do not have a bible of their own, the teaching of someone who does know the truths of God as revealed by scripture help clarify and keep spiritual truths in line with actual truth. because otherwise, without the specific revelation of God, christianity becomes equal to all other spiritual experiences people tout and proclaim.
i guess when it comes to ministry within the church, the question i'm wrestling with is: what is the place for lay ministry and what is the place for theologically-trained ministry? i tend to agree with the perspective michelle offered, which sounds like it is saying God moves in real ways in people's hearts and teaches them personally about himself in ways that are valid and true and able to be shared with others, and that a top-down ministry of the Spirit isn't necessarily necessary. but when is it?
that's when i get to a place of hearing heather's perspective again: that ALL are needed. we need those whom God has raised up to be teachers. we need those whom God has raised up to be exhorters. we need those whom God has raised up to offer the gift of mercy. and so on. we all need one another. we need to learn and receive from one another. we need to give what we have to give to one another. and that is how the body nourishes and protects itself.
urgh. i don't know if i'm making sense. and i may come off as a heretic by writing this. i don't profess to know all these things, but just to share some new thoughts i'm pondering. for what it's worth. which i'm not even sure is that much. :)
I agree with you--we need all the members of the body. I also agree that the Holy Spirit works in amazing ways, ways far beyond our imagination. While curriculum and programs can be good, they are only good insofar as their service to draw people to Christ and their openness to the work of the Holy Spirit. Seminary education is only good when it is for the purpose of serving God's people--and trust me, I've seen this go both directions. I know people who could tell you which scroll held which Scriptures but only open their mouths when it is to the benefit of God's body (I happen to consider my dad ain this group--one of the most brilliant men I know, especially when it comes to knowledge of Scripture--but his passion for people and especially for glorifying God overrules his need to tell the world everything he knows). I also know some people who are full of themselves and think they should always have their mouths open.
We all have experiences that shape who we are. This means, the Holy Spirit has unique ways to use each of us in ministry.
Take, for example, even this conversation. Michelle had experiences with teachers who used their position wrongly both in what they taught and how they controlled. This taught Michelle that reliance on the Holy Spirit is more important than being involved in a certain program or relying on a specific curriculum. And I agree with her. (Interestingly enough, this is what Paul affirms the Bereans for--they checked everything against Scripture, even what Paul himself taught them.)
Then there's me. I've had experiences where people have assumed that they can know everything outside of the body of Christ. I've seen how this hurts others because of their stubborness and arrogance. I've seen people misuse that very Scripture Michelle quoted in order to justify doing whatever they wanted to do because it's "between me and God" or to justify being unteachable. Obviously, Michelle didn't mean it that way--I know that because I know Michelle--but I reacted so quickly because of how that verse could be perceived.
I think any ministry works best when it utilizes the gifts God has given to each of His people in order to build up the body of Christ. Of course, these gifts have to be developed. I may have the gift of, say, exhortation (which I don't, for the record), but I have to let God (and His community) teach me how to use it. Not to say that I don't know anything without that teaching, but in anything, don't we want to use it to the best of our abilities?
But this brings us around to the function of women's ministry. How can women's ministry uniquely develop these gifts in order to build up the body of Christ? in order to love our neighbor as ourselves? in order to let the world see the light of God? I say uniquely because I don't think women's ministry needs to do everything the church does but for women specifically. I don't think every women's ministry needs to look alike.
Which brings us to the question of 20s and 30s. Why is it that women in their 20s and 30s who desire to develop these gifts (notice that clarification) aren't finding a space to have those gifts developed? And do they need to find a space in women's ministry or can they develop their gifts (and when I say develop their gifts, I think this includes developing our character as Christians, our hearts, wills, and minds to mimic God's heart, will, and mind, as well as develop the gift God gives each of us with the intention of ministry) in other areas without women's ministry?
Oh, and by the way, I absolutely do not think every leader needs a seminary education. Should every leader have been mentored in some form or fashion? I think yes. But that looks different for different individuals.
Wow. This conversation has gone in a lot of different ways than I expected, and it's good. It's very, very good.
i agree. this conversation has been so thought-provoking, and everyone has shared such broadening perspectives. it has really challenged me to think through things more critically, which has been an important step for me.
i woke up this morning with this thought running through my mind: what is it that women can offer to one another that they can only get from one another, when it comes to the process of sanctification? and then i realized that this is pretty much the exact same question you posted here last night, which i found pretty cool.
one thing i'll say as a preface to my attempt to answer that question is that i've never been a big fan of women's ministry, either. i've never been involved in these ministries at any of the churches i have attended and have never desired to do so. this may come as a surprise to you, heather, given this last year's movement in my life in the direction of ministering to women. but the reason i have moved in that direction is not because i've been interested in doing "women's ministry," but because i have a particular heart for walking with people through their journeys, and i have most often done this in the context of relationships with other women. plus, it just makes sense to me personally, if God has given me a call to walk with people into those deep heart places, that i be responsible to do it in safe ways. and that is where limiting it to women has made the most sense to me personally.
however, i have always cringed at the notion that this makes it sounds like i'm being called to "women's ministry," per se. i think this comes back, again, to what many have voiced here: that historically, women's ministry has felt confining and has felt like meeting for tea and crumpets. and that is about as far from what i'm about as you can get.
coming back to the question of what, then, do women offer one another that they can only get in the context of themselves . . . i'm thinking it might have to do with what i just shared about being given the privilege of going into those deep heart places. a woman who is married can go there with her husband in safety. but she cannot go to the most vulnerable places -- which are places Jesus needs to reach if he is to transform her truly from the inside out -- in the presence of other men. it's just not appropriate.
so perhaps women are uniquely suited to walking together through the formation of their hearts, minds, and souls in the sense of providing safe places to explore the real questions and real beliefs inside our hearts -- the questions that Jesus wants us to bring to him to talk about, the real beliefs that Jesus wants to hold up to the light of his truth and penetration.
That's exactly how I feel!
I haven't been involved in women's ministry because though I love tea and crumpets, I don't need a program to enjoy them (which is what Michelle said). I want something deep and heartfelt. I think the heart of women's ministry should be connecting women in spiritual formation (number one listed in my post).
And I have a hard time attaching my name to women's ministry because of the reputation of what it is. Not that every women's ministry is tea and crumpets. There are lots that go deeper. But even those that do Bible studies and delve deep into the scriptures, there's often a level of commitment missing.
I like what Michelle said about women's ministry being whatever women God brings into our lives.
I also like the intentionality of God's communities. Going back to the commitment element. I'm teaching a 6-week Bible study through women's ministry. Two things: how deep can you get into each other's lives in 6 weeks?
Two answers to that question: I've been surprised by how deep you can get, actually, with those who are committed to each other and willing to be vulnerable.
Second answer: more is needed. More time, more commitment. Even if I'm opening up myself to them, there's more to open up that I can't do in 6-weeks even if I tried. You have to walk with people for a long time to see their lives. Not everything's going to come up in 6 weeks.
Okay, second thing (sorry, these thoughts are coming out random and all over the place): we are not committed. Let's admit it. One of the weaknesses of the 20s and 30s especially is a lack of commitment. This has frustrated me, quite honestly, about the Bible study I'm leading. Except for 2 girls, no commitment. 10 people signed-up. 2 people showed up the next week. Then another joined. Then 2 more joined for one-week only. Then another girl dropped out b/c she got busy. Which left with the 2 committed and me. Come on--this is a 6-week study. How much commitment does it take? But even that was too much. 20s and 30s are always looking for the next best thing. We don't want to commit to 2 years because what if something cooler or better comes around and, yikes! I might miss the cooler and better thing?
Yes, let's be honest. There are problems with women's ministry in general that they aren't connecting with 20s and 30s. There are also problems with 20s and 30s (and I'm not speaking to the people interacting on the blog, because I think you guys are committed people, especially when it comes to other people). We don't like to commit.
And to go deep, you have to commit.
Which brings us around again to Michelle's point in smallness. I'd rather be in a solid, committed group of 3 people for 2 years than to flit in and out of big groups in 6-week studies.
I'm not saying the 6-week studies are bad. I think they're good. They're a way to learn about Bible stories and letters and wisdom.
But those 6-week studies need to be incorporated into a larger idea of spiritual formation, into a longer commitment.
People in the churches get overwhelmed--there's the 6-week Bible studies, plus Sunday School, plus small groups, plus the service projects. That's in addition to my family and work and trying to minister to my coworkers and neighbors.
I know it's all about options, but that's not really what happens. What happens is the same people are involved in a ton of different things. What happens is we get too involved in trying to attract people to our stuff rather than challenge those that are there to something deeper.
But it takes commitment.
We blame God when we back out of something.
Oh, God's calling me to this now.
Yes, we need to be flexible and open to how the Holy Spirit changes our lives unexpectedly. But I think we put too much on God. Like God wants us flitting in and out of relationships.
I love intentional spiritual formation. After doing this Bible study, which I've really enjoyed doing, I'm wondering--can I do more? What if you gather a group of intentional people, a small group, and you really commit to each other. You pray long and hard before joining the group. And for 2 years, that group is closed. No one else comes in (not to say you can't be friends with anyone else, of course!). No one goes out. You hold each other accountable to that. You intentionally do spiritual formation (and this is where curriculum can be good). Maybe something like that program I told you about before, Christianne. Maybe in between those you can do a 6-week Bible study or something together as refreshment. Like a feast after a fast.
I've talked too much.
okay, so i, too, have talked too much in this thread, but i seriously am taken in by the very real conversation happening here that actually seems to be getting us all someplace together!
i just want to chime in with a quick response to your thoughts on the 20s and 30s. yes, i agree with you that we flit from one thing to the next. we have collective attention deficit disorder, given the environment we have grown accustomed to around us -- computer life, mobile life, big, flashy media-driven life. we don't hold jobs in the same place for 20 years like our parents did. now, if you hold a job in the same place for 20 years, people wonder if something's wrong and you're not challenging yourself to do more, be better.
yes, this is a problem.
but i also think the 20s and 30s are ACHING for connection and real relationship. all the hyper-activity lives that people carry on myspace, facebook, blogs, AIM, twitter, text messaging, and the gazillion other options make it pretty clear that people in this age group are craving connection in whatever ways they can get it. they are plastering themselves all over the place in cyber cries for help. not to mention going to the bars, going to the clubs, getting hooked up all over the place to find connection and intimacy.
they don't know how to find real connection and intimacy. and that is partly to do with the stunted growth they've had in this area by gorging themselves on these other forms of (un)life, and partly to do with no one offering them a better way.
this is where the emerging church movement excites me. don't get me wrong; i am only just beginning to tap these waters; i've just started reading my very first brian mclaren book this week, called "a generous orthodoxy," so i don't claim to know his theology or whether it's good or bad juju. i'm not bringing this up to get into a theological debate. i'm bringing it up to say that the 20s and 30s are RESPONDING TO IT. it is about intimacy and connection with the man Jesus and intimacy and connection with one another, all directed into God's chest. which says a whole lot, period, about everything we've been saying here already.
for what it's worth.
Christianne--you made perfect sense to me. I think you heard all parties the way they meant to be heard. :)
About women's ministry--why does it have to be huge and mega sized? I was drawn into that misconception. What I've learned is that for me, women's ministry consists of the women God sends me. I have a few friends I can name on one hand that God has specifically put me with and I consider that my ministry. If something larger grows out of that, well, that's God's decision. What I know for now is that we're all connected, we all know it and not all of those involved are believers. But who these women are--they are women only I can have an effect on.
I don't say that to downplay bigger ministry. Bigger ministry is needed.
I guess the bottom line is that above all, discernment is needed, huh?
beautiful, michelle. i love the way you put it. probably i love it because that has been my experience, too -- there are a handful of core people in my life whom God has put there for me to walk with and for them to walk with me. they have changed my life forever, and will continue to do so.
i think i'm the one that mentioned the "large group" notion, and that is because i attend a church of 12,000 people. i have been meeting with a handful of women on saturday mornings for the past couple weeks to discuss what true community among women might look like in this church that is so large. because it is so large, it is easy to get lost, be anonymous, and not develop any deep ties. this is something i have really missed having in the past two years i have been attending, even coming from a large church of 5,000 before that. in that church with 5,000, there was still a very strong sense of community. how did they accomplish that? by the emphasis on small groups within the large group. so we're exploring how that might be accomplished in this context. and, because we're all women and have a passion for being in real relationship with other women and seeing those anonymous women at our church also find the same real relationship in the context of the believing body of our local church, we're wondering how on earth to tackle what seems like a monstrous-sized need.
that's where the question came from, at least from my camp over here. :)
ps: i'm so glad my thoughts made sense to you and resonated with what you were articulating yesterday!
I was involved in leading women's ministry for awhile and what I found is that people seem to just want surface solutions to cavernous problems. They want a quick pill to swallow, a quick dose of God to get them through. They don't really want to change.
One of the ladies in my class called me delusional because I "thought I could homeschool and run women's ministry" I told her I wasn't delusional, I was already doing it and it was working out fine. She just didn't want to turn off her TV.
That's probably the same thing that's kept me from being involved again, either as a leader or a participant. I don't want someone to lead me because they feel they have to or because no one else will. If you don't have a passion for it, why are you wasting time doing it? Do what God created you to do. You'll get better gas mileage that way.
that's interesting, michelle. i was talking with a friend last night about how in-depth spiritual formation requires us to go. it can feel overwhelming sometimes when you try to imagine how to lead a large group of people in that direction, relying on leaders of smaller groups within that large group who also need to understand the size and scope of and wherefores of it. how do you 1) communicate the real need for something like this and 2) train leaders up to begin the journeys in their own lives, not to mention lead others in their small groups in that direction?? not to mention needing an overarching leadership who is trained in doing this so that they actually know what they are leading people to do.
Christianne--1 John 2:27 says this:
The anointing you received form Him remains in you, and you don't need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things, and this is true and is not a lie; just as it has taught you, remain in Him.
From my experience (and because the Bible says so) God already has in place every part of the body that needs to be in place for it to function. The problem is that men (or women, as the case may be) constantly feel the need to control everything. If we'd just relax a bit, spend some true quiet time with God, and let him hold the reigns, we wouldn't have to have programs, leadership studies, etc. It is built in to us. Not all of us, but built into those He has gifted.
You wouldn't need a large group. You need one willing to teach and one willing to learn. Jesus started with just a few. If we'd follow his example, we'd be so much better off.
God has already given us everything we need. We just choose to overlook because we think there's something better.
Of this, I want to say, be careful.
This verse is in context of John warning about false teachers. In fact, in the letter, he himself is teaching the readers. It's dangerous to think that I don't need anyone but myself and the Holy Spirit. God affirms throughout Scripture (take, for example, the book of Ephesians), that we are to operate as a community. He has specifically gifted some with teaching (cf Romans 12:7). We are all a part of Christ's body. Because we are all corrupt and limited, we need each other to more fully understand God. Not only each other in the present sense, but all the saints in the historical sense. The interpretation that we can do it ourselves comes from the extreme individualism of Western society and is not historically held.
It's not me on an island. It's us as a community.
Not to say that time alone with God isn't important, or that God doesn't use those times to teach us.
Not to say that some don't use teaching in order to control (James talks about teachers being held to a higher standard because they have the capacity to lead others astray).
But we need teachers. We need each other. It's how God intended it. C.S. Lewis said, "That is what God meant humanity to be like; like players in one band, or organs in one body. Consequently, the one really adequate instrument for learning about God, is the whole Christian community, waiting for Him together" (p. 144).
There are also practical implications: the Scriptures were written many years ago in different languages, different cultures. To understand the Scriptures, we must understand what the languages are, what the cultures that influencd the idioms and thought-processes and images. So I need the anthropologists and archeologists and language experts. Without them, first of all, most couldn't read the Bible. Second of all, most wouldn't understand what the words meant. We need teachers who help us put these things together.
But I also agree that you don't need a large group for spiritual formation. All you need is two committed people.
All I can say is that I don't think one needs a degree to understand Scripture. That's pretty much what people have been telling me my whole life.
I'll probably just end it here though. I know what God has taught me about Himself without a teacher and I know what the people who claimed to be teachers taught me. What God taught me lines up with his word. What those teachers taught me was nothing but garbage.
Given my druthers, I'll go with the fact that the Holy Spirit will teach me what I need to know and guide me where I need to be guided. I don't need seminary for that. If you think I'm wrong, I'm okay with that.
I'm not saying we all need seminary education (although a seminary education is a good thing for some people). What I am saying is that God gave us the body for a reason and gave us the gifts, including teaching, for a reason. I'm also not saying that God doesn't teach us without teachers or that we can't learn without a teacher present. Please don't misunderstand me. I'm saying that to reject teachers fully is wrong. I'm saying that to rely on our individual understandings fully outside of the community of God (including local communities and the universal Church, which itself encompasses cultures and histories) is wrong.
There are bad teachers out there.
There is good work God does in us during our own meditation times.
Please don't think I'm denying either of those.
But we need community to fully understand God. Community is a key aspect to spiritual formation.
I also wasn't saying to reject teachers fully.
What I was saying was that people have a tendency to be people and want to do things the way they think is best without knowing what is actually best.
Someone who thinks I need to stay home and bake cupcakes does not know me and a women's ministry that sets itself up to try to force women into a social box is not what I want to participate in. That works as well as shoving God in a box and saying that he has to behave in certain ways.
So I'm not sure what you thought I was saying with my previous entry, I'm fairly certain you misread my intent--either that or you were afraid someone else might misread what I said.
Heather,
The cave troll is emerging into the sunlight to say great post with great thoughts and comments so far.
Something that has mystified us at SoulPerSuit is the fact that only women seem to join the group. We never intended SPS to be a women-only thing, but wanted SPS to be a creative, intimate, deep interaction with God and other believers. Spiritual formation with creative element, if you will.
We had a couple of men join us for one SoulPerSuit event, but it was really a one-off. Nary a male since then.
Since you've been a part of an SPS study, do you have any thoughts on why that might be?
I'm not as disappointed in women's ministries, but maybe I've been blessed to be in churches where the women's ministries dove very deep. (Attending church with a boatload of female seminary graduates does wonders to ensure that the women's group will NOT be a powder room!)
One thing that I have enjoyed about a women's ministry is the chance to let my hair down with other women. The mixed gender groups I've been in always have an air of reservation-- everyone is holding back a little bit because the opposite sex is sitting right across from them. So while the mixed gender groups are great, I also think there's a valid place for women-with-women and men-with-men. Just like I believe there needs to be a balance between corporate worship and individual worship. (The things I sing, pray, dance and cry in my personal devotional times are so much less reserved than what I might be doing in an auditorium packed with fellow believers.) It's the nature of the beast.
Never in a million years though, would I say that solid theology and Biblical teaching ought take a back seat to fellowship, issue discussions, service projects or recipe swaps. A good women's ministry should major on teaching and building up Christians-- delivering solid food to those who need it and giving milk to the spiritual newborns -- who also just happen to be women.
Wow, Heather. I think you've covered a lot of the reasons I haven't liked women's ministry.
I do have a couple of thoughts, though. They might overlap with what you've said.
I have felt like women's ministry is usually about either learning facts (going through a certain portion of scripture to understand it better) or forming relationships, but that it usually does neither well. I want real interaction. I want us to talk about our hearts, to share where we're really at, to not have to wear the "church veneer" when we're together. And I haven't ever seen that happen in the church. I guess I"m a product of my generation, but I don't want to know what your kids are doing this week--i want to know where your heart is. And women CAN TO understand and discuss the Bible at great depth, even when they aren't theologically trained. Give us some meat, already!
I just reread this and realized it's a little strong...I guess I feel more on this topic than I've thought about before.
hi heather,
i shouldn't be surprised that this is the subject of your post today, since we've been on the same wavelength so much of late, but i am surprised. want to know why? for the past two saturdays, i've been part of a small group of women meeting to talk about what a women's ministry at our church might look like.
what's even more uncanny about what you've shared here is that we, too, are starting to consider that perhaps we're meant to reach the 20-30s, too, since there are ample opportunities to join groups for beth moore studies at our church (another uncanny similarity to our contribution to this conversation this week), yet the 20-30s aren't getting involved in those. our question to this quandary is: why?
all of us who are meeting are 28 or 29 years old. so we turned the question on ourselves: why aren't WE getting involved in those beth moore studies or other similar groups being offered? what WOULD we get involved in? what need does our age group really have? what actually reaches them?
we haven't reached a lot of conclusions on this yet, but i'm totally with you on the spiritual formation emphasis. i think this is important for every person at every stage of life -- it's just a part of growing in God's grace throughout our entire lives -- but that the way different people access this growth can be affected by generational differences. for instance, this emerging generation cares more about story and authentic humanity than previous generations have seemed to be. we seem more open to the messy. we seem responsive to connecting on earthier, more raw levels that involves our personal stories and personality and stories of the Scriptures. (this has a lot to do with growing up in a postmodern world.)
i'm with you, too, though, on thinking that even more than gender or generational lines, there are personality differentiators that make us more or less responsive to certain environments and approaches.
it will be interesting to see how our conversations evolve around this, too, as we primarily seek the Lord's vision and intention for this ministry. most of all, we're asking him to show us what the actual need is in the hearts of those he wants to reach, rather than our own ideas of what we think they need or should want.
I'd love to hear what you learn in this process over the next few weeks, months, the next year. Keep me in mind!
Maybe we should set up some discussion forum for those of us who are trying to figure this out.
Heather,
You don't know me, but I am a part of the group Christianne was writing you about. I am intrigued by your thoughts and would really like to continue to hear your words on this subject. God has been stirring my heart in this area but the vision is unclear. So cool that women's ministry was the subject of this entry. I would love to connect.
Maggie Jobson
mjobson@cfl.rr.com
Amen sister. I'm man, but we're trying to break down some of these barriers at our church. Whenever I get a flyer at the church for some women's ministry, I feel the same way I felt about the Promise Keeper's stuff. Just too narrow. Don't they know there are a lot of women out there who don't fit with the way they do these things?
guess not.
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